Posted by: joshjasper | February 13, 2011

It’s Time to Re-Evaluate

For those of you that pledge allegiance to the men’s rights movement, (MRM) do you not see the gaping flaws in your ideologies? Your inability to have a meaningful conversation without personal attacks and threats only weakens anything that you stand for. You create anonymous screen names so that you can hide behind websites reporting statistics and research that is unfounded, all while lobbing threats towards anyone that counters your thinking. You claim that you advocate for men’s rights, when in fact, you are nothing more than a group of men that cannot be reasoned with, bent on spewing hatred toward others.

Surely somewhere beneath all of your hate and discontent you must still know that you have the most privilege and power in today’s society. No one refutes that men and boys are abused, at times marginalized, and sometimes even accused of a crime they did not commit, but that is certainly not the norm, and you know that.

Lastly, you have made it clear that you want nothing more than to diminish the efforts that I and others stand for when it comes to feminism. But your “activism” has resulted in the exact opposite. Before last week, a television commercial that I created had a mere 300 views on YouTube over the course of a year. Today, that very same video has more than 50,000 views worldwide. It would have previously been an incredible accomplishment to have our local media pick up a story about the work that we do. We have now been found in the Chicago Tribune, the Detroit Free Press, and on CNN, all within in the last few days. Our donations are up, volunteers are pouring into our agency, and women and men are requesting services like never before.

We have received support of our work from across the world because of your efforts. Does this not seem contrary to the very principles you stand for?

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Responses

  1. THATS GREAT!!!!

  2. Well said!

  3. I love it! An intelligent, rational response to a group of individuals who have proven to be nothing but. Thanks “guys” for the awareness!

  4. Not that there’s anything wrong with Feminism, but what is an ad telling us to tech our sons the difference between right and wrong from an early age have to do with feminism. It’s just human decency. Who could have a counter argument to that? I didn’t look into the men’s group you referenced previously, but do they condone hitting your girl to keep her in her place or something? And if they do, why are we wasting time with these jackasses. Great post.

  5. You have “enhanced” the MRM and brought out the enraged spokespeople from this movement to further your cause. But at the same time you have the very same people entering your program, as you advocate the same “Anti” form of outrage. So you version of fighting fire with fire is your justification of this new recruitment of resources and customers?

    Then I find it ironic that you want to have a “dialog” with the people you incited to this outrage, because you have better ideals on the subject. Statements like: “Surely somewhere beneath all of your hate and discontent you must still know that you have the most privilege and power in today’s society”, just provoke more Button pushing” not civil dialog. So keep up the pretense that you are trying to be amicable while posting these inflammatory comments to prod a civil parley.

    Maybe it is time to “grow up” yourself and act like a better facilitator to really trying to resolve conflict instead of being a self promoter to fill the coffers for your organization. I still say tax dollars should be evaluated for this very reason.

  6. @dgudy87

    Customers? I’m not sure why you think this is making him any money. It does help awareness, and if the FREE services to the many people affected by sexual violence has to increase, then yes, they’ll probably qualify for more funding, which is good. If you or someone you knew were affected by sexual and domestic violence, you would be able to get free services including but not limited to legal and medical advocacy, mental health counseling and a 24 hour hotline.

    They also go into the schools and teach anti-bullying, and other violence prevention education programs.

    I think buttons need to be pushed because of the obvious ignorance surrounding the misguided rage directed toward this wonderful and effective non-profit organization.

    End violence!

  7. Its more demonstrative of societys apatite for misandry and the effectiveness of scams like this. The board sell misandry, fear and an inaccurate depiction of abuse, gov funding flows in as do donations and volunteers.

    Meanwhile, abuse victims are discriminated and the board pay themselves handsomely.

  8. I think that both groups, have been empowered by this controversy.

    For every feminist out there that approves of depicting babies as rapists and abuse as gendered there are many more people out there that will be offended.

  9. @Josh Jasper.
    “You claim that you advocate for men’s rights, when in fact, you are nothing more than a group of men that cannot be reasoned with, bent on spewing hatred toward others…”

    @Comment by ‘Sandy’ – previous article.
    “Josh is right!! All men are potential rapists and all boys, even cute baby ones, have the potential….”

    Well Mr Jasper, if your latest announcement is your own reasoning and interpretation of the ethics, modus operundi and consequences of your agencies work – in the context of what many good people, men and women, are trying to do, in their own time and with their own money, to counter the use of the one-dimensional, divisive, imagery of the demonic male use in contemporary politics, social work, academia and commerce – that is your privilege. It is your conscience.

    However please bear in mind – you now speak about and delight in favorable spotlight and publicity. Throughout history all who have successfully exploited evil have also experienced such euphoria at some stage. But the zeitgeist of one era is not that of the next. The heroes of one age, particularly those of an age defined by extremism, are not, to put it mildly, the heroes of the next.

    Enjoy your moment along with the deferential cries of people like Sandy chanting “Josh is right”. History has seen it all before.

  10. Thats right Peter C.

    The people that came out in support of Josh are there hating men, in print for all to see.

  11. Josh, which studies are you refuting exactly?

  12. @Eoghan

    The baby is not being depicted as a future rapist. That would be deplorable. The baby is showing how “it wasn’t always this way.” That there is opportunity with every baby to teach nonviolence, to raise them to respect their fellow man/woman. That’s what the message is.

    There is no inevitability of rape communicated or even implied. I think we can all agree that there is opportunity with a brand new baby to raise him/her well, and that terrible things can happen when a child is abused, neglected, exposed to violence.

    All people who have raped someone used to be an innocent child, and “what went wrong” is often what people think. I think that’s the point of the baby.

  13. Bill I think that you misunderstand the message contained in the ad.

    There is a good deconstruction of the rapist baby ad here
    http://www.avoiceformen.com/2011/02/11/the-real-problem-with-josh-jasper-and-the-riverview-center/

  14. Josh you say that mens rights people have been posting unfounded stats but in general, feminists use whats called advocacy research and mens rights people use independent scientific research with no political agenda thats been carried out by leading researchers … can you point to the stats. that you claim are unfounded?

  15. Josh, what do you mean by “anonymous screen names”? You say that like it is a bad thing, but you never explain WHY it is a bad thing.

    Did you never get the memo that screen names are standard protocol in cyberspace culture?

    Don’t re-invent the rules for the rest of us. Get over it and get with the program. You sound like a newbie who has only been on the web for three weeks. . but I’m sure you’ve been on longer than that!

    But moving right along….

    You talk about gaping flaws in ideologies, but since you don’t bother to say what those ideologies are, let alone what the flaws are, than I won’t bother to take that comment seriously.

    Next, please explain what you mean by “statistics and research that are unfounded”. Tell us which data are unfounded, and why they are unfounded. Don’t make unfounded statements. Calling something “unfounded” doesn’t make it unfounded.

    Are you saying that feminist research is well founded? Well actually, it is ideologically founded. And very little of it is honest — but have you honestly looked into that?

    “You claim that you advocate for men’s rights, when in fact, you are nothing more than a group of men that cannot be reasoned with, bent on spewing hatred toward others.”

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Seriously Josh, are you joshing us??

    Stop spewing THAT kind of rhetoric, then you can come back and lecture other people about “spewing hatred” and how they “cannot be reasoned with.” But first, clean up your own act. Then maybe other people will be more reasonable and less “hateful” to in the first place!

    As a gesture of good faith, you might want to yank that vile advertisement with the baby.

    And afterwards, if you want to build the credibility of your organization, you really ought to distance yourself from feminist ideology and propaganda — and make it clear that you are not “bedfellows” with all of that stuff.

    What’s the deal anyway? Do you actually believe that stuff? Are you personally invested in it? Is it part of your identity? Or are you just repeating what you were told long ago because you never learned any different?

    Trust me Josh, feminism is not a good thing to be associated with. It is politically unhealthy, and it will taint you. Plenty of people see feminism as an ugly “radical” thing — not the sort of thing that plays well in middle America! And feminism’s stock is falling as the non-feminist movement grows worldwide. YOU should decide for yourself what bandwagon you wish to ride upon, and I hope you make the wise choice.

    But really, if you think about it, I’m sure there is some way that you can promote your organization and your good activities in a manner that does not compromise you. All you need to do is make clear that you are not linked to feminist ideology in any way. Otherwise, people will perceive you to be spreading feminist lies, even if you are not intending to do so, or not aware that you are doing so.

    Words to the wise. Please take my unsolicited advice under consideration.

  16. @Fidelbogen

    Just like any movement, you’re gonna have some exremists, but to associate ALL feminism and feminists with lies is just plain false. To associate with feminism and to call oneself a feminist, to me is to empower all men and women to be more fully human and completely equal. You may be closer to a feminist than you think!

    Feminists got women the right to vote. Feminists fought for equal pay, allow admission into colleges, sports, the supreme court. Can we agree at least that these are good improvements in our society?

    I know what you’re trying to say. That there are “feminist lies” about how men are and should be. Lately, in the media, men are portrayed as bumbling fools who are put up with by their more intelligent wives. I don’t like the way men are depicted and vilified either. I don’t blame feminism for this. I blame the cultural backlash that usually results from any human rights movement. Most of the things feminism stand for are great for men and women. I think there’s this basic misunderstanding as to what feminism really is in this thread. feminists really aren’t the problem.

  17. @Bill
    “Feminists really aren’t the problem”.

    Your entire post is a prime example of the brainwashed individual who interprets their world using information fed to them from the tower of Babylon my friend.

    @Bill
    “Feminists got women the right to vote. Feminists fought for equal pay, allow admission into colleges, sports, the supreme court.”

    All alcoholics started out as people who, on reaching the legal drinking age, enjoyed admission into bars and their equal right to enjoy a couple of beers.

    Years later when their minds, values and priorities have been poisoned by the hard stuff, and their thirst has become insatiable – that first coming out party is not what people focus on.

  18. @Peter C.

    You’re not actually comparing feminism to alcoholism are you? More far gone than I previously thought…head meet wall, repeat.

  19. @Bill:

    Rubbish! Bollocks!

    You do NOT know what I am trying to say — don’t pretend that you do. Everything you have said clearly proves that you have NO IDEA what I am trying to say!

    Feminism IS the problem, and everything you have said is rancid old tripe that we have heard ten-thousand times. Platitudes. Bromides. Cliches. Sound bites. Catch-phrases. Every last bit of it.

    Trust me; we have analyzed and studied this stuff to a ‘T’ for many years now. We have not arrived at our conclusions without serious effort and mental discipline.

    I seriously doubt that you have spent the one-tenth the amount of brainpower on all of this that we have.

    The problem is that you are a naive simpleton who ain’t hip to what’s really happening, politically speaking, in this world. You believe what you have been told, likely because that was the first thing that was fed to you in your formative years. And now it is set like cement.

    You need to take the red pill. Know what I’m saying?

    So be a renegade, take a walk on the wild side. It will be good for your soul, I guarantee. You will be a better person for it. I mean that. Seriously. Whatever is “good” about you will remain intact, but a layer of upgraded intelligence will be added to this. Give it a whirl. Please. For your own sake, not mine!

    But until then, don’t try to humor me with boring old crap that completely ignores reality and misses the point. I can ensure you that I am NOT impressed.

    You have no idea who you are talking to. . .

    Oh, and there are getting to be a lot of guys like me now — that alone ought to tell you something. Surely, we can’t ALL be wrong.

  20. @Bill:

    Yes, he is comparing it to alcoholism, and I think the metaphor is apt in many ways.

    Personally, I would liken feminism to a cancer. I think that is a better analogy.

  21. Thank you Josh! It seems as if you have hit a bit close to the nerve for Fidelbogen… However, for those of us that are always wanting to be challenged to be better human beings, and to turn away from the way that children were raised when I was a young child, we thank you for the many commercials, ads, speeches, etc.

  22. @Bill
    “You’re not actually comparing feminism to alcoholism are you?”

    ‘One is too many, a hundred is not enough’. The mindset of the individual alcoholic is the perfect analogy to that of the collective feminist movement. No matter how much is given – more will always be wanted.

    “We still have a long way to go” is the perpetual cracked record cry of radical feminists in the media and in politics.

    What else is there to give? It is unbelievable.

    Like all fanatical ideologies that achieve power – though their activities may have been initiated by a just cause – the ideology metamorphoses into something that loses touch with reality, develops intatiable craving, and issues demands that eventually leaves the culture in which their gain prominence (and themselves) in ruins.

    Like many others, you have been fooled and you are blind. But thankfully more and more people – men and women – are gradually becoming fully aware as to the totally unreasonable demands and destructive influences of the modern women’s movement as it has evolved over recent decades. You will learn.

  23. @Fidelbogen

    I guess I don’t know what you’re trying to say, but I really would like to. The fight for men to have a voice and the fight for women’s rights are two causes worthy of our ear. Is anyone listening, or just attacking? Gets us nowhere closer to understanding each other’s side – which I suspect has more in common than we all think.

    I have no idea who I’m talking to? Well, fair enough, but neither do you or you wouldn’t have called me a simpleton. Must we stoop to personal attacks? I’m pretty much done having an active lively debate once the low blows come out. Seriously, dude, I’ll take the red pill if you take a chill pill…

    If I were to meet you on the street, we may find many of our values aligned. Rights and respect for the women and men in our lives, violence prevention for the future of our children. Can we not start listening?

    The fight for women’s rights is a cancer? I’m glad someone was a feminist or my mother wouldn’t have been able to support us after my father died. My grandmother couldn’t have been an engineer on an aircraft carrier. We should all be grateful to feminism, for our daughters, our sons, our humanity.

    Spare me the accusation that I’m brainwashed and spouting cliches – i think its more a cliche to hate feminism, how its become a dirty word – very popular right now!

  24. Josh, does Riverview use the biased and discredited Duluthe model?

    Transforming a flawed policy: A call to revive psychology and science in domestic violence research and practice.

    http://www.nfvlrc.org/docs/DuttonCorvo.policypaper.pdf

    Why did you censor my post the first time I asked this question?

  25. @Bill
    “I’m glad someone was a feminist or my mother wouldn’t have been able to support us after my father died. My grandmother couldn’t have been an engineer on an aircraft carrier.”

    I am beginning to see through you ‘Bill’ and realise where you are coming from – that land of abstract imagery purposely created as tools of debate – a fictitious province known as ‘nowhere’.

    The tired methodology often used by feminist apologists when confronted with truth and reason.

    Take my advice ‘Bill’ – it does become very transparent to people, even online with no face seen, when you go down this route.

    For now, however, please close that mental comic book – on the page picturing your aircraft engineering grandmother if you like. You can always dig it out later for recycling elsewhere. Someone, somewhere, might just be gullible enough to swallow it. All the best.

  26. @Bill:

    Okay, you’re on.

    fidelbogen@earthling.net

  27. @Bill:

    I never said that that “the fight for women’s rights” was a cancer. Pay attention to my actual words:

    “Personally, I would liken feminism to a cancer. I think that is a better analogy.”

    Does the phrase “fight for women’s rights” appear in that quotation? No, it does not.

  28. @Fidelbogen

    Well I equate feminism with the fight for women’s rights, I see them as one in the same. I’m guessing you don’t. I think the basic disagreement here is the definition of feminism. My guess is you think women and men should have equal rights. I think that may even be what most of these pissed off people believe too.

    The commercial obviously struck a nerve in many men who are already feeling a bit dismissed by the media as it is, and to be confronted with an ad that says “it starts with him” well, I can see how some men would think WTF! It wasn’t a feminist message, nor was it intended to be one, it was an attempt to get us to start thinking about how we raise our boys and men, and societally put them in a small violent box. Women were left out of the message, and their part in creating society, but we can’t possibly address every ill in one commercial!

    @Peter

    I’m not sure what your meaning is. Do you think I’m being ficticious? What’s a feminist apologist? Why ya gotta be so nasty, yikes!

  29. @Bill
    Women were left out of the message, and their part in creating society, but we can’t possibly address every ill in one commercial!

    Address every ill ! Future satirists are going to have a field day with people like yourself.

    In case you hadn’t noticed – 99.99999% of messagery that has been emanating out of every mainstream TV or cinema screen, newspaper, school or university text book, political legislation etc. for over 30 years, that has contained any form of negative gender reflection, has only ever had one ‘ill’ on its checklist – the human male alone – boy or man.

    @Bill
    Do you think I’m being ficticious? What’s a feminist apologist?

    Like a religious apologist – it means a defender of a faith or ideology. And like all forms of political extremism throughout human history – far Right or far Left – causes like modern feminism are pseudo-religions based upon an idealized version of humanity that simply doesn’t exist – nor ever can. They need and create their own martyrs and their own scapegoats – and they distort reality and totally abandon truth to acquire them.

    Finally, yes, about your aircraft engineering grandmother, I believe this person is indeed fictitious. As I suggested in my previous post – when such imagery materialises in debate with feminists, the illusory, as opposed to the real (which occasionally is the case ) becomes very obvious when put into context with everything else they have previously been saying and what they inevitably reveal about themselves.

    For your own sake Bill, snap out of it. Modern feminism is something that is openly dishonest, hateful and rotten. Like millions of others you have been unquestioning about it, therefore you have been enchanted by it. But that widespread spell will inevitably be broken by reality and by the passage of time – with or without a Men’s Rights Movement.

    Feminism will be widely recognised and labelled for exactly what it is in due course. But it is up to you where you want to eventually be seen by others to have been standing when its tyranny has eventually become a thing of the past. Such things have more importance than you might presently suppose.

  30. “My guess is you think women and men should have equal rights. I think that may even be what most of these pissed off people believe too.”

    Equal responsibilities.

    And that is where things get sticky. . .

    In a slightly different vein, “rights” is a philosophically problematic concept in a lot of ways, but I am assuming we can all agree that it does not include “criminal opportunities” under its umbrella.

    As for “feminism”: has it occurred to you that “feminism” might contain more than what has been depicted to the popular imagination? Food for thought . . .

  31. @Bill:

    “..It wasn’t a feminist message, nor was it intended to be one. . “

    Oh, but it WAS a feminist message — intended or not. You have much, much to learn. Things get mighty deep mighty fast when you take the red pill.

    Most of the paragraph in which the above was embedded, was likewise a feminist message. Intended or not.

    It seems to me that “feminism”, for you, is a sacred, sentimental, golden word with a halo around it. But by the end of the day. . . it is exactly that: a word. No more, no less.

    What’s in a word, anyway?

  32. @Bill
    ” ……an engineer on an aircraft carrier.”

    @Bill – later post.
    “………….worked as an engineer for aircraft carrier design”.

    Sorry Bill but your credibility is rapidly fading, along with with the ageing ink of your text book created heroine as you clearly edit things in an attempt to bypass the flaws that you clearly know I have seen.

    You are the text book feminist apologist Bill. Faced with truth, logic and reason you delve into that large barrel of falsity that has been kept topped up for you and your fellow ideologues for 30+ years.

    Fortunately Bill, more and more people are deserting that army of nitwits delivering your barrels slurry. It will eventually run dry and reality will consequently return to our society, accompanied by a massive sigh of relief by the intelligent, unbigoted and unbrainwashed.

    Save your laughter for that time – you will need a sense of humor.

  33. Peter,

    I’ve seriously had it with your nonsense, hairsplitting tactics in an attempt to ‘expose’ me. You’re the bigot sweetheart. My credibility is fading? You can’t help but attack my claim, and then you don’t even have the humility and decency to admit you f’d up. Let’s see, was she physically on the aircraft carrier, or designed for it from afar? Give me a break. How dare you try to cover your own false assumptions with this perception that I’ve goofed up the words. You are presumptuous and have no idea what you’re talking about so back off.

  34. Fidelbogen,

    Ok, I tried to be diplomatic and play nice, but I am dealing with such ignorance, I seriously just can’t read this crap anymore. Don’t tell me I have much to learn, who do you think you are? You think this is how to get your point across? Unbelievable. Equal responsibilities? What the fuck are you talking about?

  35. @Bill:

    Rather than get hot under the collar, why not simply explain the discrepency?

  36. @Bill:

    I take it you don’t believe in equal responsibilities?

  37. You are an idiot Bill and a clear mythomaniac – you defend a cause primarily fuelled by bigotry and divisive hatred – and many of its chief advocates have openly taken pride in being so – the late Angela Dworkin, whose work is still openly used in Women’s Studies courses, brazenly declared along with many other things that “All marriage is Rape”. You have practising political commentators openly suggesting “Manhating is an honorable profession” – there are a thousand and one other examples.

    But you choose to paint yourself with its colors and wave its flag. You are indeed a pitiful individual of the first degree. That is clearly why, amongst many other things, you are a wretched liar. You simply need to be, to both yourself and others.

  38. “Today, that very same video has more than 50,000 views worldwide. It would have previously been an incredible accomplishment to have our local media pick up a story about the work that we do. We have now been found in the Chicago Tribune, the Detroit Free Press, and on CNN, all within in the last few days. Our donations are up, volunteers are pouring into our agency, and women and men are requesting services like never before.”

    YOU LEFT SOMETHING OFF THIS LIST. DESPITE YOUR ADDED COVERAGE, THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE NEW IN YOUR LIFE, THAT WILL STAY FOREVER, YOU’RE NOW A MANGINA THAT THE ENTIRE MRM HAS BEEN MADE AWARE OF, FOR LIFE, YOUR WORK WILL BE WATCHED LIKE A HAWK. WE DON’T FORGET.

    HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS MRM READERS NOW KNOW YOUR NAME IS ONE TO WATCH, A LIFELONG DECLARED ENEMY OF MEN AND BOYS, A FEMINIST SHILL WORHY OF SCORN THAT WILL NEVER GO AWAY.

    YOUR CNN COVERAGE IS FLEETING, YOUR PERMANENT SPOT ON OUR SHIT LIST IS NOT.

  39. Being new to this whole debate, I’ve just read several hundred comments on this and some other blogs. My impression: these MRA’s almost universally, aside from being really nasty people, appear to not be very intelligent.

  40. @Josh

    The objective was never to shut down the RC, but to educate you. The extra support and exposure is coming from people who want to see you do your good works better. Let’s hope you don’t let them down.

  41. Nice try, Josh. All sizzle, no steak.

  42. “No one refutes that men and boys are abused, at times marginalized, and sometimes even accused of a crime they did not commit, but that is certainly not the norm, and you know that.”

    Similarly, no MRA’s or other brand men refute that women & girls are abused, at times marginalized, and sometimes even victims of a sexual crime (such as rape), that isn’t the norm either, and you know that.

    Yet, despite you knowing that you decided to make a hateful and bigoted video portraying a male-baby as a rapist.

    You & your sort are disgusting.

  43. I do care about men and boys and I do so because I perceive a need. I do feel let down by women because men like yourself are aware of women’s needs but there seem to be very few women interested in the needs of men. There, I said it and all without a word of hate. I take your point that some men have power but that should not blind you to the fact that this is but a tiny percentage of men. It is also wrong to focus only on power when considering need. You would find that the world can look entirely different from a different vantage point.

  44. Seriously?
    You really want to play this game? I guarantee you that you wouldn’t like this game with me as a player. MRAs are like any other sector of humanity, there are really intelligent and rational MRAs and there are stupid MRAs, but guess what? There are really intelligent and rational feminists and there are stupid feminists. I want you to sit and reflect on what I just said. There are people on both sides that I respect even if I disagree with their ideas. As for me? I don’t identify as either, I personally think both sides are at least partially right.


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